Redefining Wealth & Optionality for Physicians with Guest Dr. David Phelps Video Podcast

 In a recent video episode of Physicians Wealth Meds, Kevin Sullivan, AIF®, Financial Advisor at Warner Wealth, sits down with Dr. David Phelps—former dentist, founder of Freedom Founders, and long-time advocate for helping professionals achieve financial independence beyond clinical income. 

PODCAST INFO

Kevin R Sullivan, AIF® -   (Accredited Investment Fiduciary) Wealth Advisor at Warner Wealth, and the host of this podcast 

Website: www.WarnerWM.com

Email:  KDSullivan@WarnerWM.com

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Securities offered through LPL Financial, Member FINRA/SIPC. Advisory services offered through Warner Wealth, a Registered Investment Advisory Firm.

None of our guests are not sponsored by or affiliated with LPL Financial.  The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you, consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Physician Wealth Meds, a podcast for doctors, where we prescribe clarity, confidence, and control over your financial future. I'm Kevin Sullivan. That over 37 years working with physicians, helping them navigate one of the most critical and often overlooked phases of their lives, turning a lifetime of income into sustainable, reliable income systems that last as long as they do. So today we're going to have a little different approach. We're going to approach things a little differently because we're not just talking about money. We're talking about something that many doctors and dentists feel, but maybe rarely say out loud. And that's the quiet question: is this it? Or is there more? My guest today is someone who has lived that question and has also answered it in a very powerful way. So joining me is Dr. David Phelps, a former dentist who, uh, despite building a successful practice, found himself in a situation, maybe even frustrated with the path that he was on. So instead of ignoring that feeling, he leaned into it. And what came next led him to create a movement focused on helping dentists break free, not just financially, but mentally from the constraints of trading time for income. He's the founder of Freedom Founders Community, a national recognized speaker and an author who has helped countless professionals rethink what freedom really means. In this conversation, we're going to go a little deeper than the typical financial talk. We're going to unpack the mindset that keeps high-income professionals stuck and the hidden risks behind playing it safe, and even possibly what it really takes to create the optionality in your life before your paycheck stops. So if you've ever had that moment, even briefly, where you've wondered what life could look like beyond the day-to-day grind, this episode is for you. And so let's get right into it. And this is probably not going to be about just leaving dentistry, it's about understanding what your purposed life is supposed to look like when your income no longer depends on your time. So welcome, David Phelps. I appreciate you here today, founder of Freedom Founders, offer of several books. You can find them at freedomfounders.com. Welcome, sir.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Kevin, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yes, thank you so much for joining us here on this podcast. This podcast is directly for physicians. It goes out to about 4,200 physicians of different specialties. Your story is going to resonate with them very, very greatly. So I appreciate you jumping on here today. Yes, sir. So give us an overview of your story and what you're doing with Freedom Founders.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, I think I'll backtrack to one of the words you used in uh the intro, Kevin, and that's the word optional or optionality. And and and that and that I think that that's a key phrase here because then we're gonna talk a little bit about retirement and leaving active income uh in our discussion today. But I believe uh optionality is the key because then you get to make choices that are not dictated by a society or financial constraints or a lot of the things that we are brought up with uh that are deemed to be make us successful. So speaking about optionality, I I grew up in a solid middle class family. Uh we didn't have any needs. My father was actually uh an eye surgeon, uh worked really, really hard, but good good father, good parents, didn't give myself or my sisters anything extra. And I really appreciate that, appreciate that today uh because if I wanted something extra in my life, so again, optionality, if I wanted a better uh tennis racket or better, better tennis shoes, I love playing tennis. Or uh instead of live uh instead of being uh forced to watch the family television shows when I was a teenager, I had the ability to go buy a black and white television set at at Kmart. I'm I'm dating myself here, but to be able to do that, I needed some optionality. Well, where do I get that? If my parents weren't just gonna give me the things I wanted, I had to work for it. And so learning at an early age to have optionality or some freedom in my life where I could have some things that weren't gonna be given to me under the construc constructs of the family, uh, I had to learn how to to earn money, uh, earn income. And so I started at an early age doing enough to buy the things I wanted. Uh, and then I took the the path that many of us, well, pretty much everybody on this on this podcast took. Uh, we were we were deemed to be uh smart enough, intelligent enough to become uh doctors, physicians, dentists, uh there's you know, accountants, engineers. Uh people had a knack for science and math, and and that's all fine and good. And my and so I took that path and and found dentistry to be uh a great path. I didn't want to I didn't want to have all the uh long hours uh and the after after hours calls my father had, so I thought dentistry, uh, that's a little bit better lifestyle. So to our physician friends, I appreciate all of you that put a hard, hard long hours you put in. Uh dentistry is a little bit more calm from that standpoint. But while I was in school, Kevin, I I still had this knack for wanting to understand, I'll put it this way, how does money work? I I knew what the word investment and investor meant, you know, in a macro term. Uh and I watched my father, you know, make quote investments over the years. Uh, you know, some worked out, some didn't. And I remember just being old enough to hear him not complain or whine, uh, but to see a smart man, intelligent man, a hard worker, uh trying to figure out how to be a good, you know, astute investor. Uh, and and and I always thought, well, how can I learn how to do that? And not to better my father, but just how could I learn more about that? So in in college, I was reading books uh outside of the required uh academia uh on on investments. Uh and and I so I had a real curiosity. I think it's the first thing I started with, is just a curiosity about life and making one's money work for them, even though I had no money at that point in time. I had student loans like everybody. Uh but I'm thinking ahead. And that's what got me started early, even before I uh graduated dental school, into uh acquiring some assets. Now, I'm not gonna make it make this about my story and what assets that's that's besides, but I had a plan. I had discipline. I think that's the key thing. I had a plan early, discipline, and I modulated my lifestyle as my income grew as a dentist, which which happens to all of us if we work hard enough and we're proficient and efficient in the work that we do, the skills that we have, that our income is going to increase. And most of the time, also, so the lifestyle increases also. I'm not against elevating one's lifestyle. I think there is a position to do that, but I modulated mine. And fortunately, my wife, which is another key factor in one's uh one's financial future, is marrying the right person. Uh, she went along with it to a point, of course. I I couldn't I couldn't hold back on everything I wanted to because I'm very frugal. But the point is, I started building some assets, some investments outside of the practice early on, and I kept that discipline going. I I didn't uh you know go for the the bigger and the bigger house and and more cars or a bunch of fancy stuff. I just decided I wanted to compound. I learned what compounding was compound early, allow time to build, uh, hit some inflection points. Uh I didn't know when that would happen. I wasn't um uh proficient enough to understand uh all all the things that that that you you you do and teach today, but I knew enough about discipline and saving and and being the best investor I could that that would lead me towards, again, the word I used today, optionality, and that came to play in a big way, not forecasted by me, but when I was about 20 years into practice. So I was still still I was really in in mid-career, uh, probably the the high point of one's earning capacity in in my mid-40s. And our daughter, my daughter, uh, who had already gone through and and had had had overcome high-risk leukemia at a very young age, uh, two and a half to five, uh then epileptic seizures. Well, at age 12, and this was uh 22, not 22 years ago, she was in end-stage liver failure. Um so this was like the trifecta of of a young child's health crisis. And that was the point. Uh so I'm in my mid-40s, she's 12, and I'm in the hospital with her and her mom, and it's very traumatic, of course, uh, and she's got the opportunity to have a life-saving liver transplant. So, you know, fingers crossed, prayers to God, will this work? But it was it was a it was a stronger message to me. And that message was okay, things talking to myself. All right, David, you've done all the right things. You know, you've worked really hard, you've you've built a good practice, uh, you know, you've managed your lifestyle, you provide security for your family, all the things that, you know, check the boxes. But the one thing I didn't have was enough optionality and time where I really felt like, how many more chances do I get to be a father, a dad? Uh, you know, we we we typically think, Kevin, that at some point when I get all these things right, when I have enough income and I feel like I've got the big enough moat, well, then I'll breathe a little bit, then I'll enjoy life and I'll spend time with my family. The wake-up call for me was, I may not have any more time. She's 12 years old, and this could be it. I wasn't being morbid about it, but this could be it. And so I decided right then and there to make an assessment of what I had in terms of assets that were not dependent upon me. And would those assets, if I converted them to produce some some amount of replacement income, would I have enough to step away from my dental practice back when I was in my mid-40s? Not thinking I would leave it forever. That wasn't the plan, but enough optionality to do that. And when I did my back of the napkin uh paperwork, financial, financial calculations, I was good enough. So the practice, take that that capital, put it back into what I what I knew how to do, and then buy some time. Buy some time so I could focus on my daughter. And then that turned into giving me more margin to think more about what I want to do in my life. And out of that, very organically, very organically, it wasn't a vision on my vision board at all. Uh, Freedom Founders began about 16 years ago. And we can talk more about that, but that really became my purpose and my passion today. Uh, a lot of what you do is just trying to help colleagues who are blessed to have high incomes, uh, but don't have the optionality that I think they really want in life. And where where's that missing? Where's the gap?

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah, we also call it living by choice, working by choice, knowing that, hey, at any moment you would have that choice to do what you're talking about, uh, but just living by choice is nothing like that kind of freedom. You say that most dentists don't have like a plan B, and that the cruelest fate is to possess wealth without freedom. That really struck me and it stuck out to me because one thing that we talk about here on the podcast is try to help them build wealth both inside and out of their practice. And talk to us about that, about what the cruelest fate is to possess wealth without freedom.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, I I think you know, people define you know wealth by different definitions. I'm sure you've heard plenty of things. And and but but I believe wealth without having freedom or optionality is not wealth. Uh, you you could look good on paper, uh, you again you could support uh a great family lifestyle, security, all the things that society deems as being like well done and respectful. But again, if you don't, if if you are if you are chained uh by what I would call the golden handcuffs, again, hard work to get there, blessed to do the work that that all of our colleagues do, not taken away from that at all. But if you're chained to that to keep up your lifestyle, to keep up the security that you want for your family, if it's all or primarily dependent upon you, you have no freedom. So for me, wealth is not it's not only about accumulation. Yes, you've got to be disciplined and accumulate, but it's uh it's having the ability to keep uh those assets, keep that capital, uh, keep it, deploy it, and be able to transfer it without being forced to make decisions that you didn't choose. That's optionality. And again, I think I think too many hardworking professionals just have the eye on a on a metric that doesn't provide them real freedom. It's a metric that someone gave them. It's like, well, you if you have a net worth of XX amount, or if you can get XYZ returns on your capital, or uh what just metrics that, again, have no predictability uh in in the marketplace. And when you redesign your life around time freedom, optionality, and make everything fit around that, that's where I think you you you you have the the opportunity to live your life fully and not feel like uh you're just you know chained down to something, a treadmill, like a treadmill that as long as you can keep up with it, okay, you produce, you produce. But the the real problem, and I know you you see it all the time, is is when when your clients come to you and say, Hey, Kevin, you know, you know, I I'm I'm getting a little tired of this, I'm getting kind of burned out. I'd like to see what what the exit looks like. And and that's sometimes when you have the real discussions, right? I mean, that's where that's where where now they're they're they're serious about wanting to look at it. And if you know, if they've been disciplined enough and the lifestyle hasn't expanded too much, then there's probably a way out. But my point is, and I know you know this as well, if you start early in life and develop the discipline and the habits uh that build optionality in your life from the early days, not waiting to someday in the future, then you can have that optionality all the way along the line. And it's not about retirement then. It's it's about it's about choosing, as you said, choosing to work, choosing to stay in the game uh in a model that gives you more longevity and not the grind that too many people put up with for too long.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Oh man. Okay, doctors, if you're listening to this, I hope you're getting fired up. Everything about what Dr. Phelps just said, I'd love to put that on repeat and have you say it again, but you can do this at your own time as we give you and deliver this podcast. Uh, there's moments to breathe when you get to that point, right? I mean, you can just sit back and say, wow, redesign your life, redesign your time and how you want to spend it. Because at some point, you're gonna trade back your money for time. And that is the the critical point of but what do you want to do? How do you want to do that? Um, I'm kind of structuring this podcast to kind of go wide, and then we're gonna go a little deep and go narrow with it. But so much of what you've seen since you've started Freedom Founders and all of the things that has led you up to today, what do you see now today that maybe other dentists are not seeing or they might be missing after everything that you've seen already? Is there anything different?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah, a couple of things, Kevin. I would say uh, you know, going back to what we've we've we've already discussed to some degree, it's it's an over overfocus or over-dependency upon the income that the doctor, the primary producer, uh creates, produces through active active trading time for dollars. Too much dependency on that for too way far too long. So that's number one. Secondly, is what I find in in my work with in Freedom Founders is we're blessed to be able to really engage with with our primary members, our our doctors, be they male or female, uh, but with as couples, uh so as as as family partnerships. Um and and for and for the first time, we are able to facilitate their discussions amongst each other in ways that they probably couples haven't had since they first were uh courting, dating, got engaged and got married, and had this great vision for life. You know we're all excited about that when we get married and we have these great visions for life, and then we get into it, right? And we start having families and we start building the income and and and there's there's little time or or opportunity, or we don't make the opportunity, I would say it's priorities, uh, to have those conversations. I I know I didn't. I I didn't either. Uh so having a chance, as you said, to allow people to reassess what I call what are negotiables and non-negotiables in life. And if we can focus, get couples to really be real and raw and and and transparent about that. What are the the absolute things in your life? It could be material things, could be um, could be values uh in life, but list those things. There's not gonna be a long list of pages and pages, it should be a relatively short list of what are your non-negotiables? What are you absolutely not gonna give up or sacrifice for all the freedom and optionality in the world? Okay, now we have that list, now that means everything else is negotiable, right? So now we can start saying, okay, now what's important to you? What do you really want in life? And that's where if we can get people to really talk about that and feel safe about talking about it, um, that's where the real emotions come out, and that's where people start to say, I don't mean with with pure with a bunch of regrets. I mean, there's always gonna be some regrets, but the the fact is, if you do this early enough in life, you don't have to live your life with regrets. We all have things we've done in the past and go, well, that was not the greatest decision. I didn't make the greatest thing there. Okay, put that aside and say, what can I do going forward? And when you get couples that are having these discussions real time, then they can get real about okay, what do you really want? And what's really important to you? And now you can start to look at well, lifestyle uh and trade-offs with building that optionality and what that might look like. And that that to me is a game changer, and it's a little bit of what I spoke about a few minutes ago, my own personal uh realization of what was important to me. That was time. That was time back in my 40s. I wanted more time. I didn't need a talk mall. I didn't need I didn't need more money, I needed time. And that time allowed me to actually expand everything that today I find to be good in my life. But without without that call to action, without that what I call my moment of truth with my daughter in the hospital, no telling. I'd probably still be plugging away, um, successful like everybody else, but maybe not have had the opportunities I had. So it was a blessing and a curse for me. And and I I don't want to I don't want to short shorten the story here, but my daughter made it through all that, and she'll be 34 years old this year. So the good news is she made it. I got to be really had the time to be the dad I wanted to be, that maybe I would have forgone because I thought, well, I'd have to keep working to you know do all this other stuff that I thought was more important, and in turn, she was more important than everything else.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Totally. Well, that's great news. That is great. So she's 34 today, you say?

SPEAKER_01 17:52

34 uh in a couple months.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Hey, fantastic. So, one of the things that I've always thought and and has been told to me in my whole career, when I said I started when I was 23 years old, so I got right in. You got right at it. I had some people that poured into my life and they were telling me that, you know, people are people. It doesn't matter what the day or the date is on the calendar, people are still people. Um, and you need to treat them like that because they've got similar needs across the board. They're people, you know, so when you're dealing with people, you have to have people skills and all that other stuff. But what I wanted to get to is that is there anything different today that a dentist face, or do they still have the same concerns uh that they did back when you were having the same concerns? But if there was something different, is there's been something that has surprised you to say, okay, that wasn't my concern, but I see it now, and anything like that that's ever surprised you?

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Well, I I think the big thing today, Kevin, uh, is that the last I'd say the uh the 40-year period from 1980 to 2020, you know, uh the the where where we had COVID, but that wasn't really my point. Uh we had we have had a long secular cycle from the the the interest rate highs of the Volcker era era in 1980 to to tap down inflation of decreasing interest rates, uh a lot of liquidity in the marketplace, uh relatively relatively predictable returns. And I think the problem that I see, and I'd be interested in your in your in your take, because you've gone through multiple cycles, but I have a feeling that the years ahead, the decades ahead are not gonna be the same as we have in the past. Uh they're gonna be different. Uh and different doesn't have to be bad. It's just different means it's only bad if you're not prepared for it, I would say. Uh my point is, you know, I grew up as a is a I'm right in the middle of the baby boom generation, right smack in the middle, right? So so I feel like that in that generation, even though I worked really hard, um, had some some tailwinds that allowed my hard work to be um maybe exacerbated, um, where a lot of people think, well, that was my skill. You know, my skill. I made a lot of money in XYZ, whatever it was, right? And sometimes people take that to heart and say, well, that's just my skill. I can repeat that over and over again. And I feel like some of that was hard work, it's definitely hard work, but some of that was also luck in the marketplace. And I just believe that we're gonna see uh some some differences in the long-term and even the short-term cycles ahead, which means recency bias, going back and saying, well, what has been will continue. And a big part of what I know you see a lot today, we see it all across the board, FOMO, fear of missing out. Well, you know, I I don't want to miss these big highs, these big returns, and yet, you know, and this is your area of expertise, uh, but you know, the market's at all-time highs right now. So uh so where you know, where do you go? Uh and I think a lot of people just kind of put their head in the sand and go, and just you know, keep their fingers crossed and think, well, well, just keep doing whatever's been happening. And I I think this is the time that you really people should dig in with with advisors who have multiple years in the cycles. And I it it's really a time, Kevin, where I think maybe reducing expectations and becoming more realistic because that's what's gonna give you optionality. And I think the worst thing people can do is hang their dependency on sustaining a higher lifestyle, particularly after they leave active income. So now you're dependent upon replacement income with the assets you've acquired you've acquired, you've built. Uh now you're dependent on replacement income. Are you are you prepared for the volatility that I think we're gonna see? And are you prepared to be a little bit more risk averse, risk mitigated, uh, keep a higher margin of liquidity? Who wants to maintain liquidity when you can when you can leverage and get more money make more in the markets? That's what we've seen in the past, right? And everybody wants more of that, more of that. Give me more, give me more. And I think I think it's kind of time to pull back. So that was a long answer to your question, but I think that's what I see as a danger for a lot of people that are that are entering that phase of I'd like to leave active income now, I'm ready to go, and let's just the market. Is going to take care of me. And I think that's probably not a good way to look at it.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah, right. So many people become victims to the headlines and they make those decisions based on what they see and hear all the time. But you need to stay in control, you need to stay on top of things. Uh, you need velocity, you need leverage, you need all of those things, which tax savings do as well. It's on top of it. So let's dive deeper. What part of being a dentist for you was the hardest to let go of? Was it income status control? I'm asking you this question in light of maybe a doctor that's listening now, that they might be having that question to say, yes, I what you're saying is resonating with me. I know this is me. You you hit a bullseye. As far as for them, what would be the hardest thing do you think to for them to let go?

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Yeah, it's a great question. I see it all the time. And I'm a little bit of an outlier in the fact that I always was kind of working on a plan B, and I had I I really had an identity to some degree outside of dentistry. And so for me, I can honestly say it was it was not it was not a hard decision for me to to leave dentistry. I mean, my main focus was, as I said earlier, do I have enough replacement income from the assets I had acquired at that point to sustain what I felt was important for my family? That was it for me. It wasn't taking the hat off and saying I'm no longer a dentist. That never bothered me. But I would say, to your point, my work with others is that's a huge, huge piece. In fact, I'll see many that are at the point where financially they're okay. They're they're gonna be okay. They could they can make the move, and if they want to transition out, sell the the business, the practice, um, they they could do that. And I'll see some get right up to to the line, you know, it's time to sit on the LOI, right? And they'll pull back almost almost to a point of self-sabotage. And when you start to dig in and so they start making excuses, well, you know, the deal the deal's not good enough or something, and and you start to see be beyond that and and see it's really about the identity. And and that's huge because I I get it, you know, when when when when you're your identity, you respect all these years has been built on uh who you are uh and what you do. Um, you know, you go to an office, uh, you you you take care of people, people are are are are very happy to see you because you solve problems, you've got a staff that respects you. Um and and and to walk away from that one, and then you say, Who am I now? What what's my meaning and purpose? And and I think the worst thing for people who don't have a purpose or a place to go for the what I call their next after having a success successful career over many decades is is is they will oftentimes decline, uh decline physically, emotionally. Uh it can be a bad place for many, and I think this is a key is they've got to start having uh the the the internal discussions or discussions with other people uh well before they just decide to to leave practice because that can hit them like a brick wall.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

So true. I've got a lot of friends in that space too that deal with those very issues about who you are after the fact, what lifestyle and what's your identity and connecting people like that. It really serves really well. Have you ever had this moment where people said to you, What are you, crazy? And then six months later, how'd you know? Do you have you ever had one of those moments?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Uh you talk about me personally?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah, personally. Like when you were gonna break away, were there people saying, What are you crazy for doing this? And then six months later, after everything started to formulate and you started to be successful on the other side, then they'd say, How did you know? Have you ever had one of those kind of moments?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Well, it's yeah, it's it's interesting. Um initially, the the people that that knew uh actually it here's how it happened. You know, my my wife um sent out a Christmas letter. This was, you know, many years ago when I had made a decision to sell the practice. And the Christmas letter was really about my daughter Jenna. You know, she'd gone through the liver transplant, you know, things were finally starting to look better. So we felt like, and she took it upon herself to send out a letter to our friends and colleagues, uh, and just to kind of report the status. And you so the subtle line was, you know, David's David sold the practice. It wasn't some like big celebration, you know, pop the corks and that. It was just like he made a decision. And the response we got back from a handful of my closest friends were like, Well, David, I get it. I mean, I would do the same thing for my family or daughter, so I understand that. So it wasn't like, are you crazy? No, it's like, okay, you had a real reason. But the the the question that I got on under that, Kevin, was okay, but could you tell me how you did that? So it's like like good for you. You made a you made a smart move, but but that doesn't seem right that you could pull that off when you're in your 40s and uh no, what what how does this work? And so it was like, well, could you tell me could you you know this is a handful, Kevin? I'm not talking about well, could you could you show me or tell me how you did that? And that's really kind of how Freedom Founders started. I had again no vision, but I had a handful. I said, Well, I said, I said, I I I can show you what I did, but I started when I was in my 20s, and I was balancing a lot of things, and I didn't have a big uh family then. So I said, there's there's other ways to do it, but that's kind of how Freedom Founders started, um, long story short. And um, so that's the answer to your question.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

A couple of follow-up questions to that, too, is like, why are so many high-income professionals ignoring the voice? So let's say you've had the voice, like you said, there was some people that just got right to the line and backed up, self-sabotage kind of thing. Um, why do they ignore the voice? And what's been the aftermath of that? Did they realize that they should have done it and did they actually go through with it the second time around, or was it just done?

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Uh it's it's it's probably a a combination across the board. I mean, for some for some, they would come back around after you know uh reassessment, uh more discussions with family, with with spouse. Uh and I I think uh a big another part of it, even though even though you might look at their finances and say, you know, if you know, if you follow, follow this this protocol, this structure, this discipline, you, you know, you're you're likely to be fine. Uh, but I think there's still uh at some point some uncertainty because what I what I find is in these discussions when someone's thinking about transitioning, it for the first time the reality hits them that they no longer have the active income to bail them out or pull them out of a hole. Now they're thinking for the first time, okay, these investments that I've made over these years, the capital from the sale of my practice, uh, this is gonna have to work for me. And I've never really sat down and talked to anybody about how does this work. I mean, I've been an accumulator. I've you know put money in the 40 days and everything. And good, good, good, great, no, no problem there. But now it's converting that to sustainable, predictable replacement income for hopefully some decades ahead. And then we have you know uh stickier, higher inflation that we hadn't seen in in 40 years, and and now this starts to come into play, and and now there's there's some fear factor there. So it's a combination of the identity, uh the uncertainty about replacement income that has them really thinking through this. So I I think for those that that do stumble across this question and question themselves, uh, it really takes some deeper discussions and and they need some guidance from professionals that have gone through this records. I think if you're not trying to, if you're trying to do this alone or figure it out, you're not, because it this is not an area of expertise that any of us have uh that aren't you know professional in the in these ranks. I mean, you've got to find someone who can guide you and and and give you the the the confidence that where you are is is going to work for you. And and they're we're all analytical, so we appreciate, but we don't know how to analyze it, is the problem. Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Do you think there needs to be something said to them to maybe jolt them or get their attention? Do you have anything that you say that kind of opens their mind? Because I've always uh thought about everybody needs somebody to challenge what you're thinking, it's like a mental vitamin, is what I call them, you know, so that you can say, okay, they're doing stuff that I never thought I could do, and they're giving me ideas, and it's just opening up my mind to bigger and better things. Is there something that you would say that would kind of start that thought process with a dentist?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Kevin, I I I like like you, I've I've had so many conversations over the years and in in my own reflections of my own life, you know, and bringing that back and thinking, well, what was I thinking then? What were my thought processes? Yeah, I I I really think it's you know, it's it's timing with with each individual. It's it's a it's a message and a timing that resonates with a particular person. I don't think there's any broad-based message that any one of us can give that would be a kind of a wake-up call. Um, it's it's I think we put a different message. It's why I write different books, uh, and I do, you know, like you, I do podcasts and and and just trying to get messages out so something on the right day, the right time will resonate with that person, and they decide, hey, this is the time I need to make a move. I've been procrastinating this, and whatever that person said to me or whatever I read, it's like it's prompting me to action. Look, I'm the same way. Uh there's things out in my life that I know I you should should should do or take care of. They're not burning fires right now. I think I have more time. And yet something wakes me up. It could be someone else's experience, could be a case study, could be uh a friend accommodating something. It's like, okay, I need to take that to heart and make some moves in that direction that I've put off for many years. So there's not one message that I've found that that that covers it all. No.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

So what should a dentist be thinking about or doing right now if they wanted to consider this or if they want it out?

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, I think it's it begins with really doing internal, uh, again, internal, but also with one's spouse, their significant significant other, uh, to start designing today uh what they want in the future, you know, timelines, you know, a year from now, three years from now, five years from now, looking down the road, what exactly they want to see happen? And again, I I bring that back to time. Uh what kind of time do you want? What's you know, if if you could have more duration with your business or your practice, what would that look like? What would allow you to stay in it longer if you were happy doing it? So building that in and then reverse engineering back into okay, then what does that mean financially? What does that mean in terms of the income that I need to produce? How much do I still need to add to my net worth that's going to turn into replacement income? The things that you do, right? But I think it starts with the conversation uh that facilitated by somebody who's good at doing that with the couple. Um when they when they can get real about that, now you've got their attention, now they're on the same page, because the worst thing is is to have you know couples to have have one spouse thinking one way and the other thinking the other way, and there's there's no no coal coalition in the middle. And once they can come together and and and and nod their heads, not totally and agreeing on everything, but understanding there's a place for for what each one wants. And some of us are more long-term thinkers and we'll just put off uh you know any kind of relevance for today, and that's not good. And then there's others that you know we'll we'll burn everything for today, you know, and not everything for the future. So so there's a but there's a you know, this there's a place to bring that together and and give and and if if each if each each person in the in the in the relationship know and feel confident they're gonna get ultimately what's really important to them, uh, which means it's gonna be important to the other person too, then they can move forward with a plan that's gonna be cohesive and they can look at and it can be monitored and they can have checkpoints. And now you've got something and not just guessing anymore. That's the worst thing to just be guessing and putting it off to the future.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Oh my gosh, yes. Communication with your spouse is paramount. It's kind of interesting too, because if you sit them down and you ask them uh a series of questions and you don't let them look at the answers that they provide and then try to find that crossover point, um, it's a real eye-opening thing. I usually tell clients, you know, okay, the point purpose of this is to remain married after this, you know, but just going through and just be real with it and then find out where that common ground is. Do you find that dentists talk amongst themselves, you know, from dentist to dentist to say, uh, here's what I'm thinking, here's my struggles, here's what I'm going through, here's my fear, or is it more isolated and they don't say anything to anybody?

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Very, very isolated, Kevin. Uh, it's yeah, it's a world in which you don't want to show up to the outside world, particularly your colleagues, and look like you're weak. Okay. Yeah. I'm just saying, it's it's it's it's unfortunate. And I and I get it, I get it, you know, because I'm I'm not a person who's gonna walk into a a room or uh a round table or something if I don't know the people and just start opening up about my life. I mean, uh, but I think part of it is if you're in an environment where that kind of discussion is facilitated and and and I don't mean to say allowed, but but but it's it's a you know safe space to talk. You strip the egos off. That's what allows for the deeper dive. But no, it's this is not these are not conversations that that the the dentists are gonna have at the meetings or continuing education courses. It's like, nope, it's like, how's the practice and what's the latest uh technology you just purchased, and uh, how are you dealing with insurance? And it's all it's all business stuff, right? And then there's nothing that goes deeper. So it's yeah, I think it really is a a place where facilitation of this kind of discussion can have great merits.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

So someone could sit down in a group setting at some point and say, hi, I'm Kevin, and I'm a dentist. You know, and just look at it. That might be very helpful. What is something that you believe or have seen about financial freedom today that would have sounded crazy to you as a practicing dentist?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

I just I think the word uh retirement, particularly where we are in the market cycle today, doesn't make a lot of sense. I I I think that's been a moniker that's you know it's been with us for decades and decades. It's like you know, you you work through a career, a business, a profession, whatever it is, you know, and then you have a retirement day. And and I'm but I'm all about evolving to a next next. Now, sometimes evolving to a next does mean you leave the primary business. But for a lot of people today, Kevin, I'm finding that again, once they have peace of mind about their finances and the alignment with their spouse, so they've got a plan, they breathe. And then when you can breathe a little bit, I'm seeing dentists redesigning the their practice model not to be in such an urgency or a grind position where like, well, I've I've I've got to I've got to get the revenues up and I get the profits up because I need to get this big sale. That's that should not be the motive. Certainly, you want to, when you decide to sell, you should you should, you know, again, uh, you know, optimize to the extent possible. But if you hang everything on some big exit, some big multiple that has been relevant in the past, wrong move. And I've seen many dentists who have restructured their practice model and are actually enjoying it, sometimes enjoying it because they've actually got the respect it respect and reputation in the community. They have a strong core team, which is hard to develop, and of course they have a loyal patient base. And it's like, well, when you can restructure your business so you don't feel like you have to be hitting certain numbers, you still want to be profitable, but maybe you you you you reduce the the days in the chair. Maybe you you you reduce some of the some of the procedures you just don't like to do anymore. Okay, when you can do that, you can show up more days or maybe three days a week. I've got dentists doing that right now. They're saying, hey, I can do this for another three, four, five, six years. Three years ago, I thought I wanted out completely. And so not only have they retained a more of a transition to their new identity, they've also facilitated um a sustenance of some active income that could be uh adding to their you know accumulation for replacement income. There's many benefits to having uh a roadmap, a plan that allows you to have peace of mind because it takes the stress off and takes away this idea that you've got to just keep pumping, pumping, pumping, pumping for some magical exit that may not happen to the degree you want.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah, man, how you structure it and have a systems in place. And I had a chief urologist speak with me last this past Saturday. He says, Kevin, I work three days a week now. He says, I never thought I'd get to that point, but I absolutely love it. He's got time for himself, time for his passion to continue on doing what he's doing. And we like to use the word like transition. Like, what are you transitioning from? It's more about what you're transitioning to, right? And that should bring the hope, that should bring the excitement, the joy of what does life look like for you on the other side of a transition when you stop practicing full time? And it's it's huge. They love it. So, man, are you having a good time? This has been a great conversation here today. I appreciate your candidness and openness.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Well, I told you before we started today that I thought I was gonna enjoy this conversation because I knew a lot about you. I did some research to see you what your background was and what your philosophy was. And when I saw it, I thought, okay, this is gonna be fun because I I I like you, I'm very passionate about this. I really enjoy being in a position where where I don't have to do anything either, but I enjoy the work I'm privileged to do with the people that I'm privileged to work with. And just you know, you know, I just giving guidance and really more. Um I tell people, I I feel like I I'm a person who interferes in other people's lives if they'll allow me to do so. Hopefully, in a good one.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

In a good way. Yeah, very good way. What do you see as a timeline for a dentist that says, yes, I'd like to do this? Is there a specific timeline like you say, like maybe three years, two years, one year? What does a dentist need to get ready to maybe say, okay, let's let's put this thought process into motion?

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Uh are you speaking specifically about just creating more optionality or actually uh transitioning out of the business?

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Or yeah, transitioning out of the business. Once they say, Okay, I don't know, you've got to get your valuations, you got to put all that in place. But what do you think is a good timeline for a dentist thinking about this?

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Well, I think you've got to start at least three years in advance. Um, you you you've got to have good financials. And I and again, uh I find a a lot of doctors who are very good technical doctors, um, that a lot of times their financials, I'm sure you see it too, are are not up to par. So uh those so you need three years of of some good books, some good numbers that are reliable uh to give you the markers for evaluation. Uh, but also, but also I think that you know there's a a period of a mindset shift uh as you're thinking about transitioning, as we said earlier, uh there's gonna be a big identity change. So if you start three years in advance, then you've got time to start to start you know figuring out and what is that transition gonna look like? Uh you know, what's what's the potential exit? Who's gonna be the buyer, right? And I think once you identify what that looks like for for the individual, for for that person, now you can design, well, then what should be done, what needs to be done based on their goals um in and how they want to exit. A lot of docs would like to you know make it more of a transition. And there's ways to do that, of course, as you know, or sometimes it's just an outline sale, walk-away, whatever that looks like. But um starting in advance, because until you start to think about it and have discussions about it, your your mind's not there. And there's things that are gonna start to pop up that you want to be able to address and have time to really consider some of those aspects uh that are going to show up and be important before you get there or feel like you're you're in an urgency to make it happen real quickly, because that's never a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah. So if a dentist feels successful but not fulfilled, they feel like on paper they're successful, but obviously not fulfilled. What's the first step that they should take maybe this week? If you can grab a hold of them and say, hey, here's something that you could put into motion right now, tomorrow morning, this week, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Yeah, Kevin, I think the first thing so we can start working into the other things is they need to determine, uh, and this is the work that's never done uh because they don't have to do it while they're working, is what's their burn rate? What's their real lifestyle burn rate? What what what is their personal cost of living? Uh, all in, all in. Uh, you know, take taking over a full year, average down to a monthly basis. Every time that I drill down on that and I kind of in a nice way force them uh to do the work to get those numbers because they don't, no one wants to do it. And look, let's face it, as long as you're producing good income, you kind of don't have to do it, right? You just like you can always live to fight another day, you can pay those bills and keep going on, but it's kind of like treading water. But I've I've had so many come back and say thank you for for forcing us to have this discussion, to get the real numbers, because as again, as a couple, we looked at and go, okay, well, again, what's important? Uh, how much of this has just been been an over-amplific amplification of more and more costs that get added on, added on, added on, because it's just easy to do. And how much, if we s if we were willing to strip away some of the oversubscriptions to things that we don't really value anymore, would that change our methodology and our timeline? So I always start there. It's a financial piece, but until they have that, then all the other, I think, conversations are kind of peripheral and don't really come to a point where they are they, the client, uh, the the member in my case is going to feel confident about having any conversations beyond that. Because it comes down to it. Um they're they're they're numbers people. Um they they get it, even though they haven't had to do the work on the numbers, they understand numbers come into play at some point if they're gonna create more time and optionality in their life.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

So if you want the freedom, there's some work you gotta do.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Unfortunately, there's work to be done. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

You know what, but the future you will thank yourself for it. This is an important point. You're doing it for yourself when you do those numbers. It's something that you're working on for the better you, for the the transition you that you want to be on the other side of this. So if that's a great reason to do it too. So maybe a little pain now for less pain later and a lot of happiness and a lot of breathing. Absolutely. I'd like to know a little bit more about Freedom Founders if you could let them know about that. And just open mic here, and also just about your books. If there's a couple of books you want to highlight, I know you've written what seven or eight of them or so. Yeah, I've got seven or eight.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Um, yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, I I I I enjoy writing. Um, and so I've written a lot of books on a lot of topics. Uh, you know, uh, what's your next? And uh uh books on on on maintaining freedom in life. Uh the most recent book I wrote, which is again coming back to the word optionality, is is as the exit optional playbook. Um I'm it's not it's not not my most favorite, but it's it's a very relevant book to to today. So those books are available if people want to just dig in more to philosophy. Freedom Founders itself is is I really describe it as a as a community. I am not an advisor, not a financial advisor. I'm just one who facilitates conversations uh that people, our members can become more cognizant of what's important in their lives, uh have some basis of where they are financially and then they can be in a better position to go back and work with their advisors and and have have I always say have better questions. You're never going to be as good as people who have like yourself Kevin who are who have been doing this for years and years. But you you become a better client you become a better advocate for your own self and your future and for your family for generations if you know enough to ask better questions. Because you you know Kevin when someone comes in and they're they're a little bit more educated about about certain aspects of life and finance then you have to have a better client because you can have discussions at a greater level. So starting there to do that for themselves uh but freedom is a community we have member member events uh it's a very it's a very tight community um it's uh it's people that uh I I kind of relate it to the sitcom cheers where you walk in the bar and everybody knows your name it's it's it's that kind of a tribe um so I I I guess we're just blessed to have that I guess I I attract I attract certain people and probably I repel other people but that's okay because that's the way it should be in life you should you should work with the people you enjoy working with and who who appreciate you and and there's always other people and places for people to go that that better fit. So uh freedomfounders.com is the website um I also have a podcast I'd love to have you on it Kevin as well it's the Freedom Founders podcast I enjoy it so yeah because I think we could we could do a deep dive uh with some of your um your your uh revelations you've had over the years as well so yeah enjoy talking to anybody who uh who would like to know more about the community at any time that's excellent I appreciate this conversation um is there anything else you'd like to use for any kind of closing remarks as we wrap it up here I I would just say that uh that your life is your life and whoever you are listening today that I no doubt you are successful uh by definitions of society and of your your your industry uh probably in the light of your your your family but there's there's always a price that we pay there's a price we pay there's always everything in life comes with a trade-off so I would just say this is not not to you know demean oneself but say you know who else is paying a price for whatever you or in this case me what what I think is important and it's and it's not saying you haven't done a good job but who else is paying a price for what we think is important? Maybe it's a time to have discussions uh while we still have time with the people we care about because at the end of life we're not gonna look back and say well gee if I would have just worked a little harder I could have gotten a bigger multiple on the exit of my practice. It's not gonna come up I promise you uh if I would have had more in the 401k not going to come up so just think about those things now and and and place yourself in a position where looking back in time you will have said okay the things are important in my life I focused on those to the best I could I had the conversations I did the best I could no I say live life with no regrets is the best thing we can do.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

I was gonna say no regrets. Absolutely um because that that's what matters that's what matters and the legacy that you leave for everything that you've created I want to thank you so much for your time today. It's been a wonderful chat with you here today on our podcast uh this has been Dr. David Phelps from Freedom Founders joining us here today um on the Physician Wealth Med podcast. It's a wealth podcast for doctors and see this is how you can create wealth both inside and outside of your practice so that you will have wealth that will sustain you for generations. So I want to thank you for joining us here today. Powerful conversation today with Dr. David Phelps and if you're listening closely you probably realize that this wasn't about dentistry and it wasn't just about your money. It was about control. Control over your time control over your decisions and ultimately control over your future because here's the truth a high income does not automatically create freedom and success in your practice doesn't generate sustainability in your life after it. So at some point your clinical paycheck will stop and when it does the question becomes have you built a system that can replace it reliably predictably and on your terms that's exactly why I created the retirement income decision room for physicians. It's where we take everything that you've built and help you structure it into a clear coordinated income system designed to last as long as you do. If this conversation resonated with you and if you've ever just had that thought I just really want to know if I'm ready I want to take the next step you can learn more at the retirement income decision room dot com